Monday, October 12, 2009

Does God Exist? Probably Not, and This is a Bad Attempt To Prove It.

This @GospelToday asshole (I'll get into why I start off with name calling in a bit) on Twitter has been going back and forth with me trying to convince me that there is evidence for the Biblical God and that The Bible isn't so much an article of faith, rather proven fact [then why bother talking about faith, am I right?].

He links me to a page with an FAQ. The first question is "Is there a God?" and attempts to show the Bible is true by citing the Bible. Usually if I read a premise with a huge logical blunder as an opener, I don't bother wasting my time. If someone wants to write a thesis that 2+2=5 and not 4 I know it's an impossibility and not bother wasting my time reading it. However today I did. Under the short fail synopsis I get this link

The article first starts off saying it's not going to use wishy-washy arguments or ask you to just believe it. Fair enough. Then right back into a bible verse. *face palm*

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Well, not exactly. No matter how intricate something is, doesn't mean it's a creation. It is plausible that these things could of come into being through other methods. Just because we are used to seeing computers, satellites and other intricate objects that we made does not mean anything as intricate or greater has to been created by something of a higher power or conscience.

So then it starts showing how things about Earth that would make it impossible to come about by non-creative means. The fact that the size makes the gravity just right and atmosphere possible...etc. In order to accept this you have to have preconceived notions or a complete misunderstanding about science. The Earth doesn't necessarily provide exactly what life on Earth needs, rather Earth's life was built on what Earth could provide. Earth wasn't built for us, we were built for Earth. Also sense God created everything because he lives outside of the physical universe, he could just weaken or strengthen the power of gravity to allow for another size planet.

Pointing out that no planet we know of is anything like Earth is useless considering the billions of stars in this galaxy that can host planets similar enough to Earth to create life. Not to mention different kinds of planets that could host different kinds of life forms. Also not to mention other stars in the other millions of billions of other stars or the possible existence of other universes.

In the book "god is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens he explained one of his first questionings of God was in a school of religious sorts where his teacher pointed out how great God is for making the landscape and foliage green and not some other color that would annoy our eyes like purple or orange. He saw that it wasn't the color of the landscape and plants made for our eyes, rather our eyes were suited for viewing the landscape and plants. Religious people should be careful when making stupid assertions as this might lead to others questioning their beliefs.

It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
Are you sure about that? The earth axis is tilted. The more north or south you get the more irregular the days are until you get to the pole where you get 6 months of darkness and 6 months of light. The fact that the sun doesn't distribute light evenly is why we have seasons and our seasons in U.S. are the exact opposite of those in Australia.


Next he points out water and how we need it to live. However, other life forms could theoretically use other chemicals to live on and God could of made any other sort of system for that. Just because we have water and we need it to live, doesn't mean there is a god. I would be more open to the idea if Dr. Pepper was our water.

People like to point out how strong the brain is all the time. How it can remember and think analyticly ...etc. However, if you look into how cult mind control works and a the fact that humans have the longest childhood dependency than any other life form, then you can see why even the smartest of men can be duped into believing just anything including things that are very self destructive. The brain is complex nonetheless but it still has many faults. For example; the human memory. This video will show exactly how bad the human memory truly is. Get a pen and paper handy. Why would God build our minds so weak in comparison to his or what we perceive our own minds to be?



The eye! Ohh yes, the irreducible complexity of the eye! The argument that can't be debunked enough. It seems like I have heard every single creationist pull this out of their trick bag and so many times it has been refuted I won't spend too much time on it. To sum it up, we know how the eye evolved and we've known about it for some time. Longer, I might add, than the irreducible complexity argument has been around. This is one of those 'the earth can't be round because the chineese will fall off' arguments that could be answered by a quick Google search. However if you are unable to look into it yourself i'll just post this video that sums it all up for you:


It's also worth pointing out that this amazing eye can only pick out about 1.5% of the electromagnetic spectrum we call 'visible light.' I think humans could of used some infrared to help keep them save from predators or enemies at night or the ability to see radiation to not get sick from radiation poisoning.

However let's say that this is the best possible configuration for humans to live. This doesn't show evidence of a creator or designer. We can all agree that a building was designed and created. How we know that is far different than how we think a God could create us. For example we can goto an architect's office and see the architect design the building. We can goto the planning offices and see who when and how a building was made. We can go to a construction site and observe the buildings being built. We cannot go to God's office and see how he designs things. We cannot goto the Heavenly Divine Co.'s planning office to see who how and when the earth was created (Don't say the Bible can, the Bible said he did, now how.) Also we cannot goto God & Co. Construction Site to see another universe being created. Therefore, you have to assume that it is a creation. We all know what happens if you assume things, don't we?

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?


Good question. However you didn't not attepmt to answer it. By saying "Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter" doesn't mean that you win by default. There's two logical fallacies you are making:

1. False dichotomy/dilemma - The idea here's only two possible answers to this problem; #1 and #2. #2 is wrong therefore #1 is right. In actually there are several possible answers and none, one or more could be right. Not everything is black and white, there are many shades of grey. Scientists are still trying to find out the answer using the scientific method that our society is founded on, creationists want to stop them because it offends their beliefs and just want to use bronze age myths to answer it and look no further.

2. God of the gaps - Well science cannot answer our question, therefore God did it, or I.D. did it, or Allah did it, or Zues did it, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster did it. Unfortunately thats not how we do science or rational thinking. We don't insert placeholders on things we don't have evidence for yet. If we don't know, we don't know. You don't assert you do know what we cannot provide evidence for because a book commands itself to be right said so.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?



Again, this is a God of the gaps argument. It is amazing things operate on rules that cannot be broken. Does that mean someone created it; unfortunately the only thing that laws prove is that there are things that cannot be defied. It's a logical leap to say it exists therefore it HAS to be created by one particular deity.

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.



Because humans have something vaguely (and I do mean VAGUELY) similar to computer code in them doesn't mean that it is a code from the heavens, or paradise or wherever your band of sky daddy's home. God of the gaps much?



5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.



What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?!


This one is very easy to answer. As an atheist I get verbally assaulted if I mention I am not a Christian to someone like you. If I say I am an atheist, I get the very degrading and insulting "I'll pray for you" line. As if you have a better relationship with this god with than others and you can get him to do favors for you, like helping my stupid ass believe as you do.

I find it abhorrent that people would do everything they can to stop science from helping humanity and civilization like stem cell research because they think that it's killing babies (which it's not.) Also; see The Dark Ages for other examples.

I think it's immoral that someone would kill, slaughter and maim others in the name of their particular brand of religion. That leaders would take us into a war because of the arrogance that is "God will favor our undertakings."

I think it's repugnant and insensitive to force a woman to keep a child that will only remind her of the time when she was raped because you think the morning after pill or first trimester abortions are not OK with your sky daddy.

It's also annoying that up until a year or so ago I couldn't purchase alcohol on Sundays and only within certain time frames because of peoples devotion to a book I don't believe in outweighs my opinion. This has been fairly hard for me since I work night shifts and I'm not much of a drinker. So purchasing a good beer to enjoy on some 'nights' make it a task I have to plan for. I have to wake up early (8PM is my 'early mornings') just to get one or too beers that will last me approximately 1-2 weeks. It's almost not worth my effort.

I think it's criminal to send people to jail or prison because they had a particular substance in their pocket that people think that God doesn't approve of.

Life as a real atheist is difficult when those around you are imposing their beliefs and their morals and their superstitions on you by force, intimidation, or insulting suggestion because in their area a certain book was thrust upon them at an age where their brains are not developed enough to question what they are being taught as 'absolute truth' and you disagree with that book. That is why I fight for reason, compassion and the elimination of bronze age superstitions. I don't have a problem with your run of the mill religious people, and I will fight for their right to believe in what ever they want. People who do not insult me or feel that they should follow the rules in their book and not force others to do the same. Those who allow me to live my life as I see fit I can do nothing but respect and thank them for their kindness. Not like the asshole @GospelToday who insults me, calls me, a liar and judges me; which is why I call him an asshole, asshole!

Because you think there is evidence for a God is proof of one particular God is baffling to me. The story went from were an atheist, you saw evidence for a deity so you assumed it was the god of Abraham plus Jesus, minus Mohammad hurts my head because it's a HUGE logical jump. Which is why you posted question 6.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.




Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him.


Well, you forgot many who have indeed called themselves Gods. Egyptian pharohs, Chinese and Roman emperors, Naram-Sin, Imhotep, Dido, Homer, Romulus, Hephaistion, Alexander the Great, or Veleda. These are just the ones before Jesus supposedly lived and not counting those who weren't as famous who claimed divinity. Why not believe those? Why not believe in those who call themselves Gods afterwards? Well you site a few Bible passages which leads me to believe that in your area, the Bible seems to be the more popular religious book so you just went with that. I guess Egyptian hieroglyphic translations aren't too popular in your neck of the woods. If you were born in India you would apply this same exact logic to Krishna and the Bhagavad-Gita. Religion has a lot in common with business, one of which is location, location, location! How many people have you heard who has this exact same story in the southern Bible belt who just picked up a copy of the Koran and accepted it? None, because people around you prefer the Bible to the Koran and so you just went with that arbitrarily.

It's sad that this article is the voice of reason to so many people. An article to prove the God of the Bible's existence using fuzzy, irrational and circular logic to prove something that said God doesn't want to provide proof of (he's big on faith, not on hard evidence.) I think if God wanted us to have faith he'd cast doubt by giving us many "holy books" to choose from, making all of them questionable in authenticity and asserting to just have faith in it. Ironically that's exactly what he did do assuming he is real. If he wanted you to have evidence for himself, he'd part the sky from time to time to say hello and remind us he's there watching, not you trying to prove something you just gotta have faith isn't a question of faith, rather is objective fact we all must accept or we are being willfully ignorant of hard irrefutable evidence.

I have read better attempts to rationalize the existence of gods, like the website The Skeptical Christian. This was probably one of the worst aside from just genuinely stupid people on YouTube like VenomFangX or GEERUP.

4 comments:

Roz said...

If you're just reading these guys, then you're playing with softballers. Far more intellectually honest to grapple with this kind of thing: href="http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/text/argument.htm">Arguments for the Existence of God.

There are lots of other good things to read. Not all Christians (or deists, for that matter) have reasonable arguments for their beliefs rather than rely on the Bible to defend the Bible, an approach that you rightly see as woefully circular.

Without intending to give offense, I think you'll find Catholic thinkers more tuned into the use of reason in inferring the existence of and characteristics of God than many Protestants, especially non-denominational types. Peter Kreeft, a theologian and smarter man than I or perhaps you, rightly identifies the primary problem about the existence of God as the existence of evil. How can God be loving, personal, and omnipotent at the same time? It's not the dilemma that it seems, but it's challenging. Kreeft is worth a look. More than one, actually.

If you're genuinely curious about how the other half thinks, I'd also recommend C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. It's an easier read than the web site above and, addressed honestly, should present interesting food for thought.

Cheers.

Roz said...

Whoops, sorry for the broken code. My bad.

The Reverend Internet Jim Jesus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Reverend Internet Jim Jesus said...

This isn't an attack on Christianity or Christians. The Catholic church has been pretty pro-science when it comes to evolution, cosmology...etc. (the same can't be said about their stance on contraceptives)

Most Christians accept the fact of evolution in the world, creation and ignorance as proported on this article is more of an American phenomenon.